Hong on RTHK Radio5 Programme – I
English Translation of RTHK Radio 5 Programme – 笑容從家開始
Episode title: 性取向治療 (“Sexual orientation therapy”)
Date: January 28. 2010
**NB: Highlighted comments are rather dubious remarks made by either Dr. Hong and/or the host.
Client’s and relevant persons’ personal comments are in blue italicized text in square brackets.
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SMILE: In the recent few days, everyone is concerned about the statistics released by the Police. Yesterday, ‘Yet Gor’(head of Police Department) held a press conference, where news on delinquencies of youngsters are revealed. The problem of illicit drug use in the school campus was discussed. Emm, in the recent 1 year, 40 students were arrested for crimes involving illicit drug use. This figure was 7 times than that of the previous year. Also, another matter that worth (our) concern was drunk driving. Perhaps you are very worried about your own children, hey, are they using ketamine? Or, how is their behaviour and lifestyle in school? [4:20”]
SMILE: Perhaps you are also very concerned about your children whether they have taken Ketamine or about their life and behaviour at school. Another topic that is worth concerning is the problem of your children’s sexual preference (另一個議題都值得關心，就係關於你的子女的性取向的問題). [5:00”]
[the fallacy of questionable analogy/faulty comparison[1] – Smile was comparing school students’ drug use and sexual orientation as her way to introduce her topic on sexual orientation; she was introducing sexual orientation of their children as a problem that is as worth concerning for parents as their children’s use of drugs]
SMILE: This is a topic that we rarely discuss, right? Let us ‘open our embrace’, and talk about it. Sex education, is not just about concepts on sex, it also includes the concepts on gender identity (性別認同). Is a similar problem (問題) occurring in your home? Not long ago, Smile (the host) received a phone call from a parent. The parent said that, his/her child seems to have a homosexual inclination. Of course the parent was confused (迷茫亦都好旁枉) and didn’t know what to do. [5:10”]
Later, I will invite a psychiatrist, Dr Hong Kwai Wah, who has experience in counseling homosexual people, to talk to us. You are welcome to call us on [quotes phone no.], our family hotline to talk to us. [5:45”]
Thursday, 28th Jan, 2010. A secondary seventh form student was charged for stealing at a supermarket. He put on school uniform to attend the court, and was scolded by the judge. Being the only son in the family, this seventh former said that he stole in order to lessen stress. He was wearing a set of school uniform, attended the court hearing at the Fanling local court. It is said that he stole nuts and canned meat from a local supermarket. [06:29”]
… A lengthy discussion on the case and how remorseful the mother felt… [14:45”]
SMILE: Now it is 8:15am, I am Smile Cheung. Today we have a very exciting topic. Parents are very excited to listen (to the program), but are often afraid to ask about or don’t know where to ask. We will be talking about ‘perplexity/ questions on sex’. Our guest is psychiatry doctor, Dr Hong Kwai Wah. Good morning, Dr Hong. [15:11]
HONG: Good morning, good morning, hello. [15:45”]
SMILE: This is the first time we meet, but previously I have read a lot of Dr Hong’s articles and talks. I know that Dr Hong has done a lot of work on sexual orientation (性傾向) and sex indulgence (性沉溺). Your cases, many of the people who seek your care have these problems, right?
HONG: Yes, yes.
SMILE: On average, (your clients) what is the age group?
HONG: Can range from 12, 13 years of age, to 50 something
SMILE: The age range is quite wide
HONG: Yes, it is. (People of) each age group has their specific problems.
SMILE: So for the 12, 13 years old, they are forced to attend (your counseling) by their parents, right?
HONG: Yes, most of them are. Haha [16:04”]
SMILE: How about the 50-something, why do they seek your care?
HONG: When they first have homosexual inclination/ orientation (性傾向), in the beginning most of them have accepted their sexual inclination and lead a homosexual lifestyle. But a proportion of them, after a period of time, after many relationship breakups etc, feel that they could not find the kind of ‘true love’. And, the homosexual lifestyle cannot give them the kind of ‘true satisfaction’. So there are times when the person had a lot of defeats and unhappiness, they will re-consider whether they change their sexual orientation (性傾向), or follow another path.
SMILE: Emm, so they want to given another choice to themselves.
HONG: Yes, yes.
SMILE: That means it is still possible to change even at this age
HONG: Yes. Some people still does not want to change, but they have other depression, anxiety, other mental/ psychiatric problems (問題) so they seek help. [19:55”]
SMILE: So you still give advice, still treat them?
HONG: Yes, yes
SMILE: Ah, a while ago, some parents asked me a question, that I think it is worth discussing about. But because this question is not easy to be answered, so I have invited Dr Hong to talk about this. [21:00”]
HONG: Good, good
SMILE: The parent thinks that, in the school, or in the society, ‘diverse sexual orientation’ is talked about and promoted. That one should have respect and have equality.
HONG: Yes, yes it is
SMILE: But sometimes when talking to children on the topic of sexual orientation, parents have a set of ‘value system’ in their mind, although (they are aware that) the society is now talking about diversity, respect.
So they do not dare to talk to the children. There is even a case, where the girl lives in a girl’s hostel (usually for delinquents). There is some problem with the family so the girl was living in a hostel. When the girl returns home on weekends, the mother noticed that the girl had changed over the recent two years. Her appearance became boyish. The parent even suspected that …will the girl … could it be… a homosexual? The parent didn’t know how to face but were too afraid to ask. So I think for those who seek your help, the parents carry the same questions, right?
HONG: Yes, yes.
Usually they discovered through reading the SMSs, or learnt from contents that their sons or daughters communicated with others on computer, this indicated that the content of the conversation is not of mere friends, it seemed like of those who were dating with some very intimate wordings, however, the other person was of the same sex, there might even be some sexual contents.
So, sometimes some parents discovered it, especially the mothers, the mothers usually care more. So they became very worried, very confused, and were very unsure, and they really wanted to prove it, but they did not know how to mention it.
Sometimes they were very shocked and felt very guilty, with self blame, or at times, they did not want to believe it’s true, and felt that the other party, whether the male partner or female partner, was the one luring their son or daughter.
Sometimes they were really at loss. Usually, their knowledge of this was very poor with very little understanding, but they dared not talk about this with others as they feel shameful, or whether something was wrong with themselves as parents, or whether it is due to the family that has affected the child to be like that. So it is really very distressing.
We have been in touch with many parents who had discovered their children with this kind of [sexual] orientation, they are very sad; and no matter whether it is the father or the mother, very often they cried many times. [20:00”]
SMILE: They may even feel that “what have I done wrong to lead to this to the child?”
HONG: Yes, yes! But, actually, the origin of homosexual orientation is very complicated. Of course, the influence from family and parents are really important, but it is not definite, there are other factors.
SMILE: From your professional perspective, how many contributing factors are there?
HONG: Congenital factors (先天性因素) exist, but congenital factors only have an indirect influence, it’s not a decisive influence.
These days there is a belief circulated in society that homosexuality is inborn (天生), from one time of homosexual experience (一次嘅同性戀), one would be homosexual for life with no way to change (以後都同性戀無辦法去改). This actually has no scientific basis.
Although, there are congenital factors; current research indicates that acquired factors (後天性因素) are more important than congenital factors (先天因素).
[Is this true? We may need an expert opinion (from a psychiatrist/ psychologist) to decide whether this view is 1] a minority view and 2) incorrect?]
[There have been numerous research published which found much significance of biological/ “in born” factors. These includes studies on MRI bring function, brain structure, hearing sensitivity, finger length, possible familial/ genetic linkage. However, research which supports Dr. Hong’s claim and found significance in environmental factors are published by NARTH à therefore it is possible to argue that Dr. Hong did not present both views presented by research?]
SMILE: Really? What are the congenital factors?
HONG: congenital factors affect the kids’ temperament (性情); e.g. sometimes a boy should be playful and is rougher etc., but sometimes some boys are more gentle and sensitive, he is fearful of being hurt, slightly more moody, but he has more artistic talents and creativity, he prefers activities that are more gentle and quiet (文靜). If he has such character, he would not be boyish or man enough.
If during his development at home, his relationship with his father is not good, he would then lack a role model to learn from.
SMILE: A model (or an example) of gender role (性別榜樣), like what guys are like…
HONG: Yes. He would turn out to be too much not boyish enough and he may prefer female games or hobbies or activities. When he goes to school, he may sometimes being rejected by other boys, and some may even tease him as being effeminate (la 型) etc., and this hurts the formation of his gender identity (性別身份嘅建立). If the formation of his gender identity is being hurt, he feels that he is not man enough and cannot join in (埋堆) other boys and cannot identify with them (認同唔到), the next step may affect the formation of his sexual orientation.
[is this true? Is he conflating/confusion gender identity and sexual orientation?]
SMILE: Since I cannot identify with boys, I may as well [identify] with girls.
HONG: Yes, he thinks being with girls is much safer (佢覺得同女仔安全好多) and has more to talk about (又岩傾好多), their hobbies may be relatively similar. This is very natural. [22:39”]
SMILE: (Because of the similarities) he may wonder if he has a female nature/essence (有女性嘅本質)?
HONG: He has doubt about himself (佢懷疑自己). He questions (why) he is different from other boys (佢懷疑自己同其他d男仔唔同). But he does not necessarily reach (去到性別身份嘅疾患) gender identity disorder, but he has some what we call gender confusion (性別身份混亂), or because of his gender identity that gives rise to depression.
SMILE: I just heard from Dr Hong that homosexuality is caused by a combination of congenital and environment (factors).
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: Congenitally he has more feminine attributes (質素) and temperament, but this does not mean he is homosexual.
HONG: This is very normal, there is, what we call, a huge variance among males (男嘅都有一個我地話好大嘅分別).
SMILE: The same with girls?
DR HONG: The same with girls, some are more male (有D男)…
SMILE: Some girls are more forthright (豪爽D).
HONG: Yes, more forthright.
SMILE: More androgynous temperament, more active (中性情D，好動D).
HONG: This is actually very normal. [23:40”]
SMILE: But the worst is when this kind of temperament is not being accepted (至弊呢就係話佢有咁嘅性情呢就不被接納) during the developmental process.
HONG: Yes, yes. Or it does not help him develop that male or she is female…
SMILE: His/her innate (本身) gender temperament.
HONG: Yes, his/her gender… that aspect.
SMILE: In one aspect, his classmates tease him, the societal values are getting more and more confused, he himself may also feel that this is not definite like they could be male and could be female. [24:00”]
HONG: Yes.
[There seems to be an implied message that the upbringing of homosexuals is problematic. This is offensive to LGBT community, promotes stigmatization of LGBT families and is simply incorrect]
SMILE: Regarding the aspect of parental education, you mentioned earlier if his same sex parent – for example if he is a boy, his relationship with his father; or a girl, her relationship with her mother – if that aspect [the relationship] has problems, it would also have an impact (影響)?
HONG: Yes, yes, yes. That’s why the psychologists have also said that if that kind of identification – i.e. the emergence of problem with the identification with the same sex parent – this is also a major cause that affect the formation of his future sexual orientation.
[Do mainstream psychologists/psychiatrists] still hold this view? This view seems to be an outdated theory and I do not know where he got his information from]
SMILE: That is to say if his relationship with his same sex parent is not good, or if he feels that problem has emerged from his father’s and mother’s marriage, he may then become fearful of people of the same sex or people of the other sex.
HONG: Yes, actually the role of the parent of the other sex is also very important. For example, very often, the relationship between the son and the father is not good, [i.e.] bad and has no way to identify with, sometimes the mother would try to come out to protect the son; sometimes some mothers are being too protective and being dominant, i.e. could not allow the son to develop independently, to have his own decision, everything is arranged for him; this would suffocate the development of his male spirit (男性氣概). [24:55”]
SMILE: How about the girls? [25:35”]
HONG: Regarding the girls, for example, the father is not good (個爸爸係好唔好), actually, the female also very much needs the father to affirm (肯定) her female identity and role, she feels safe and protected. If the father is very bad (爸爸好差), even being violent etc…
SMILE: Let’s continue when we come back (programme went into the news).
SMILE: The time now has just past 8:35, today our invited guest is psychiatrist Dr Hong Kwai Wah. Dr Hong, we have been talking about a person’s sexual orientation, how it is formed, we have especially talked about the congenital and acquired factors of homosexuality, the familial environment, relationship with father and mother, also, after he enters school, the influence from his peer is also very important. [32:50”]
HONG: Yes, [the influence is] very big. Yes.
SMILE: There is also the society culture. Earlier we’ve talked about the gender role identification (性別角色認同) of the father and mother has the deepest impact.
HONG: Yes, yes.
SMILE: If problems emerged from the relationship between the girl and the father, how would that affect her?
HONG: If the father’s example is very bad (如果爸爸個榜樣係好差), being violent and being irresponsible (又唔負責任), basically he could not let his daughter have a sense of security (安全感). Actually, female very much needs the male to give them a sense of security, because this would affect her courtship in the future, what her so-called ideal husband would be like. Very often, she could see her father who may beat up her mum, being very angry (惡), using verbal abuse/violence etc. Sometimes the girl would wonder why the mother was being so weak and not to resist it, that’s why she feels that if she continues to be a female she would lack the sense of security. Therefore, she will develop a dislike of her own identity and role; and instead wants to be like a male… [33:37”]
SMILE: To protect…
HONG: Even to protect the mother, and to rival the father (同爸爸去抗衡) in order to have that sense of security, so she may even hate the male gender very much (什至好憎恨男性).
SMILE: So, after she grows up in the future, how could she be attracted to men (佢點樣會去到鐘意男人呢)? Sometimes we say our early experiences would universalise (有時我地話早期嘅經驗呢會普遍化), although she knows in her mind that not all men are so bad, the males she has encountered since childhood are that bad, so this has become a deep impression (咁變左來講呢個深刻印象).
HONG: Thus, no matter whether it is identification with the same sex or having the example of the other sex, they very much affect our future sexual orientation (無論同性嘅認同定異性嘅榜樣呢，都好影響我地將來個個性傾向).
[Do mainstream psychologists/psychiatrists still hold this view?]
SMILE: Earlier [of what’s said], many of these are Dr Hong’s clinical experience…
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: Of the cases, patients and people who seek help that you have encountered. Have you ever met any who really seemed to have no problem, they have a normal family, and relationship between the parents is very good and very satisfactory, but they are homosexual and you can’t think of the reason why they are [like this]?
HONG: With some of the cases, there’s no way you can detect problems those people have encountered, however, sometimes they have experienced some sexual assaults and it can be from homosexual or heterosexual sexual assaults (有一D呢，你睇極都睇唔出嘅個D呢，有時佢真係有一D嘅性嘅侵犯，無論係同性或者異性嘅侵犯).
Sometimes you notice what we call TBG[2] – i.e. those female homosexuals who are tomboys, who are more boyish – the chances of many of them being influenced by their families are bigger (有時你發現我地話TBG，即個D tomboy男仔頭D呢，個D嘅女同性戀者，多數都係個個家庭嘅影響，會去到比較大D). [35:29”]
[do mainstream psychologists/psychiatrists hold this view? Over generalization?]
Sometimes you would notice some who are very feminine, she doesn’t seem to be, in fact she has been assaulted or hurt by the other sex, or she has been bullied a lot [or] lied to by the guy during love relationship. This makes her lose all her confidence in men and in the so-called heterosexual marriage and courtship; she can even [find them] very abhorrent and be very fearful. At times, she would therefore prefer to find a woman, but [that woman] can be very boyish who can play the role of protecting her. So, she prefers to find [a woman], she could seem to have a husband, but she has not got a real male identity that hurts her. So, sometimes these are some of the cases (咁但係有時你會發覺有D好女性化，你睇來睇去都唔覺得呀，原來佢可以去到即被異性個個侵犯同傷害，或者去到戀愛當中呢，比個男仔去到好欺負、去到呃個種受傷，令佢對男性來講呢，對所謂異性嘅婚姻、拍拖係完全失晒個種嘅信心。什至去到好憎惡、好怕。咁有時變左佢咪寧願揾一個女士嘅，不過係可以好男仔，可以做到個個保護佢嘅角色。咁佢寧願去到係揾呢個，佢又可以好似得到個老公，但係佢又無個個真係男性傷害佢個個身份。咁所以有時呢D都係其中一D嘅個案).
[the way he associated the “causes” and “effects” is alarming!! But I guess he can always argue that the above is simply based upon his own clinical experience as requested by Smile a minute ago, i.e. he’s not generalising to everyone else.]
SMILE: So, she arrives the step of homosexuality is actually the result of many of some possible hurtful experiences in the past (咁變左佢去到同性戀呢一步，其實都係因為好多過去一D可能受傷嘅經驗嘅一個結果來嘅)? [36:45”]
HONG: Yes.
[Dr Hong had been very cautious as he only spoke about his own clinical experience. However, we can argue that his comments promote stigmatization of LGBT people and victims of sexual abuse?’]
SMILE: When some clients come to find you as a doctor, how do you talk to them or how to deal with them? Because the parents says that sometimes, there are some social workers who recommends to parents that “if your kid has homosexual inclination, firstly, don’t panic, secondly, accept him/her (Smile giggled), thirdly, agree with him/her, i.e. the so-called sexual orientation is infinite.”
That’s what people these days say – that you can be homosexual, can be heterosexual, can also be bisexual (Smile giggled), can be polysexual, pluralistic of choices. So, you just allow him/her to develop according to his/her own orientation. The most important thing for parents is to support and encourage their children. (第三就係認同佢，即所謂為性傾向或者性向係無限架嘛[3]，即而家話同性又得、異性又得、雙性都得多性又得，多元選擇。咁你咪按住佢自己嘅傾向去發展囉。家長最緊要係支持佢、鼓勵佢)?”
But some parents hear it and find that there is something wrong, upon hearing it there is something wrong. So what should they do?
HONG: Firstly, I have to ascertain one thing – we have to respect that other people have their own individual choices. We should respect our children having their own individual choices. This is for sure. However, that kind of affirmative therapy, i.e. accepting that sexual orientation and accepting homosexual behaviours, is only one of the methods in dealing with this situation.
For example, helping homosexuals, helping him to accept his sexual orientation and behaviour, encouraging parents to accept their children’s sexual orientation and behaviour, this is only one of the [methods??? Inaudible] (個個肯定式嘅輔導方法，就接納個個性傾向、接納個同性戀行為，只係其中一個嘅出路。譬如幫助同性戀者，幫佢去接納自己個個性傾向同行為，鼓勵家長去接納佢嘅兒女個個性傾向同埋行為，呢個係其中一個進｛度／路？｝) [37:34”]
But even you do that, some homosexuals or some parents have no way to accept and agree with the homosexual behaviour. So, we actually also need to help those parents, otherwise, we would leave them feeling guilty. It’s like, “alas, there is not way I could agree with [homosexuality], so I am very much a failure being a parent” (但係你就算咁做呢，有一D同性戀者，或者有D嘅家長呢，係無辦法去到接納同認同個個同性戀個個嘅行為。咁我地其實都需要幫助呢D家長，否則來講呢，我地就留比佢地一種嘅內疚。即好似：“唉，我就無辦法認同到，所以我就去到即好失敗喇作為家長”). [38:22”]
I think another method is to help those parents not to agree~[4] although they do not agree, they still accept and love their children; do not place too much importance on sexual orientation. No matter what sexual orientation their children have, they are still their children. They should continue to love and to communicate with them, to care for them in different aspects.(咁我諗另外一種嘅方法呢，就係去到幫助D家長去到唔認同～ 雖然唔認同，但係仍然接納同埋愛佢地嘅仔女，唔好睇到個性傾向睇得太大。無論個仔女個性傾向係點，個個都係佢個仔女。佢都去愛、去繼續同佢去溝通，關心佢各方面。)[5] [38:47”]
[Is Hong promoting a method that is practically infeasible?? I.e. to accept the child but reject his/her sexual orientation which is one of the core aspects of someone’s identity???]
If their children really do not want to talk with the parents about this sexual orientation problem, we go to the next step. The parents do not need to worry. However, there are other aspects where the child also needs~ that is, the parents also need to support, to guide, to share the burden etc. Why we, because of sexual orientation problem – one problem to completely obstruct all errrr the so-called relationship between parents and children? (如果個仔女真係唔係好想同家長傾呢個性傾向嘅問題，我地去到下一步，個家長唔洗去到急。但係有其他方面呢，個細露都需要~ 即個家長去到係扶持呀、引導呀、去分擔呀等等架。點解我地因為個性傾向問題，一個問題，就去到阻礙晒成個err所謂父母同仔女嘅關係呢？) [39:13”]
I think the other [method/way out???] is, although there is no agreement, one can still love and care. This is another method (我諗另一個進{路？？}呢，就係雖然唔認同，但仍然去到～ 可以去到愛同關懷。呢個係另外一個嘅方法).
SMILE: This is very difficult [to achieve] – not agreeing but accepting, this is quite hard (呢個好高難度－不認同但接納呢，都幾深架).
HONG: Actually, it is separating between the person’s behaviour and the person himself (其實係將個個人嘅行為同個個人嘅本身來去到分開唧). For example, if the kid has certain behaviour, like taking drugs, we can still love him and won’t neglect him just because he takes drugs.. I think that [people in] society can be the same and won’t do that neither.
SMILE: Hmmm, this analogy, can people understand? You won’t dissociate from him for good because he takes drugs.
HONG: But I don’t want our audience to misunderstand that [we are] using drugs taking as an analogy of homosexuality, I hope people won’t misunderstand; I am just using another analogy…
SMILE: Actually, you just want to elucidate the separation between a person and his behaviour.
HONG: Yes, yes, yes.
SMILE: So, when he has some kind of behaviour, and you find it problematic…
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: But you not accepting/ or agreeing with that behaviour while you still accept him as a person, the children can sometimes feel it. [40:37”]
HONG: Yes, yes.
SMILE: [mimicking a child’s voice] You don’t agree with me on this, that means you don’t accept me!
HONG: That’s why the parents must have to make it explicit; they have to tell the children more often. Actually, from our experiences of helping these kinds of parents, the children really begin to understand. Of course, very often they hope that you would agree with them and accept them (你又認同又接納我啦). But if you do not agree, your child cannot force you to agree; just as you cannot force your child to change their sexual orientation; therefore, why force the parents to agree with the other party? Parents have parents’ standpoint (立場), but they can still continue to love and to care. We are helping such a group of parents. At the beginning – what you said earlier was right on – it is very difficult to make it work, but after two to three years, there are many parents who were able to achieve this.
SMILE: Really?
HONG: And then some children… those children felt a lot happier. But he knew his mummy still does not agree. So it is not just one way (所以唔係單一條路). [41:36”]
SMILE: So, previously, was their relationship very bad, I guess?
HONG: Yes, so, actually, the first step for parents, we usually help them sort out the reactions of their own emotions first. i.e. not to let their own emotions…
SMILE: The sense of guilt and self blame.
HONG: Yes, and the lack of understanding of homosexuality which damages their relationship with their children again, i.e. to damage it further.
SMILE: But in daily life – it’s easy to say – in the nitty gritty of daily life, living together… there are many things that trigger… [42:08”]
HONG: It’s very hard… the parents sometimes suffocate while learning how to endure it (忍). Moreover, very often, we have to help~ if they parents are not divorced/separated tp help them to have one mind, to discuss with each other (幫佢地同心，一齊有相有量) how they could help their children. This is a very important thing, otherwise, very often, those families of single parents would become very alone. That’s why we have some small groups for this kind of parents to support and encourage each other.
SMILE: Oh, you have some small groups? How do these small groups operate?
HONG: These small groups know that we are an organisation that helps them. They phone us to seek help, so we regularly have this kind of meetings for them, and we share and we support each other regularly.
SMILE: Is it for parents specifically?
HONG: Yes, it is for parents specifically.
SMILE: Errr, this support is very important.
HONG: Yes, very important.
SMILE: Because it is hard to spill the beans to others…
HONG: Yes, they dare not tell the relatives about it. Moreover, they feel that after they disclose it, others would know about their children, it would be more difficult if in the future the children want to change! [43:18”]
SMILE: Oh yes, letting others know about their past! They would be labelled.
HONG: Yes, yes, yes.
SMILE: When we come back we’ll talk about having acceptance without agreeing, as at the end of the day the parents want to be good for the children, what can they do from then on? You are welcome to call 1872312 to our “family hotline”, “Smile Begins from Home”, Smile is waiting for you. After the break, we talk to psychiatrist Dr Hong again. (Programme went into song…)
SMILE: Earlier Dr Hong has talked about a very important idea, we the parents have to grasps very tightly the idea of accepting but not agreeing (接納但唔認同). We have to learn as we practise it, i.e. you have some problems with your children’s behaviour, you actually do not agree with them, but you have to continue to accept them, to continue to have this unconditional love. Then, the parents would ask another question, Dr Hong: “Well, if I don’t agree with them then, of course, I would want to change him. [48:42”]
HONG: Yes, yes, yes.
SMILE: So, if the children you have behavioural problems then, as a parent, I certainly would use various means to change them, whether using force or bait or whatever.
[Smile seems to be associating homosexuality to behavioural problems]
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: If I have to accept him, that means I don’t attempt to change him?
HONG: Errr, you can encourage him to change, but the problem is that this is something that you cannot force people to change. Actually, one’s sexual orientation, in the majority [of cases], develops during ages of 11 or 12 years old when the child begins to discover themselves. Although, the orientation is not his choice, but the behaviour is his choice. [49:24”]
[Is his rhetoric about choice misleading?]
So, when we have to change someone’s character, do you think you can force someone to change his character if he is not willing to make the change? So, even if the parents really want him to change, he cannot be forced. It is something he has to realise on their own accord (係要佢自己自願).
SMILE: So, sexual orientation is a voluntary change (性傾向呢一個係一個自願嘅改變)?
HONG: Yes, it is a very core portion of his character. During his developmental process, due to some other acquired factors (後天嘅因素) that give rise to the formation of his sexual orientation today.
SMILE: Then the parents may ask, if we cannot coerce, can we persuade them?
HONG: Yes, you may.
[Is that against the statement released by APA?]
HONG: I feel that parents should not be afraid to be frank and chat with the children, to understand what’s in their heart first. Actually, the parents should try to whether their child has any struggle and distress towards their own sexual orientation.
For example, whether they, themselves can accept this orientation. Do they want to find someone for help to understand it better? Firstly, let’s not talk about deciding to change. At least if they feels distressed and if they are willing to have some professional counselling, or in the market~ in society, there are some organisations that adopt different standpoints – some are called affirmative counselling method, and some help them to change sexual orientation. These organisations accept these types of people for counselling [or] for personal interviews to give them some guidance and to have more understanding of this homosexual problem (佢想唔想去到揾人去到幫助、了解多D呢？唔好講話決定改與唔改先啦。起碼佢有困擾，能夠有時如果佢願意有D專業嘅輔導，或者係市面上～ 社會上有一D嘅組織，即採取不同嘅立場啦，有D叫做肯定式嘅輔導方法，有D呢就去到幫助佢地改變性傾向嘅。咁呢D嘅組織來講呢，就都可以去到接受呢D人去到輔導呀、面談呀、比佢地有一D嘅指引呀，對呢個同性戀嘅問題，有多D嘅認識).
[is it appropriate of Hong to mention organisations that help people change their sexual orientation without mentioning their inefficacy? Would it give people false hope of changing sexual orientation?]
[American Psychological Assoc reaffirms in 2009 that 1) homosexuality is not a mental disorder and 2) encourages mental health professionals to refrain from misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts]
[American Psychiatric Assoc 2000 position statement reaffirms their 1973 position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder]
SMILE: So, parents have to have sincere care, and not have [underlying] “cards” in their hands (底牌) – the children would feel that in fact you have said and done so many things [because] you want to force me to change, then they would refuse to change even more. [51:33”]
HONG: Actually, there is no problem for them to have [underlying] cards in their hands, but your cards are their own standpoint, and should not be imposed on the children (佢地有底牌都無問題，但係你有底牌個個係你自己嘅立場，即唔好強加於仔女) because sometimes as they reach a certain age when you force them, on one hand it cannot be changed, on the other hand it damages the relationship between parents and children. So persuasion (勸預) and understanding, and to observe this aspect and the development of sexual orientation such as asking questions like – are they dating? Would they have any unsafe sex that could [lead to] STD and AIDS? – are important for parents to care about.
SMILE: To care more about their needs…
HONG: Sometimes, the more the children feel that you respect him, the more he is willing to reveal. If he is not willing to talk about this area, then you care for his other areas. Sometimes, after a while he is willing to even talk and reveal about the development of his sexual orientation area. So, parents have to be very patient to maintain the love, the care, and the communication. [52:31”]
SMILE: This is a very big challenge.
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: So, you have to continue to talk with the child, to understand, to see that the child also has some distress, if so, get some support. Like what Dr Hong said earlier that in society there are some supportive type (支持式嘅), there is a type that can… help the child change their sexual orientation or to help affirm their gender identity and role (肯定性別身份同角色). [53:00”]
[Is it appropriate for him to promote this kind of reparative therapy?]
SMILE: What do you mean by affirming gender identity and role?
HONG: Let’s have an example; I have helped a male homosexual who feel that he is not “man” enough. He to a certain extent [inaudible] he is more feminine than other men (佢自己去到某一程度下？？ 比其他男嘅好女性化). [53:30”]
So, he was sexually attracted to those men who were very masculine and wanted to date them. So, for example, if he wanted to change his homosexual orientation, one of the things we do is to help him fortify his male identity and role (咁佢就去到被個D好man嘅男就去吸引佢，性吸引同埋去到好想同佢地拍拖。咁譬如佢去到想改變個性傾向，我地其中一樣野做呢，就幫助佢強化佢個個男性個個嘅身份同角色).
For example, one time, I had a client who was already a husband, we encouraged him to learn to actively care for his wife and to think of his wife’s needs, and not to behave like a son and let his wife act like the mother all the time to take care of him, because he is so passive. So, these characteristics can be learned and encouraged.
For example, I had another client who felt he played tennis very badly. I tried to help him by suggesting “hey, why don’t you find a tennis teacher to teach you play?” So even though he played poorly previously, after training for one year, he was able to defeat those he thought was very masculine and had never learned tennis before. So, this can help people enhance their male spirit (男性氣概). After enhancing his male spirit, to a certain extent, he should feel that he has more self-confidence. So, these things can be helpful.
For example, some girls who very much could not accept their female identity and role, we try to help her to accept herself from the bottom of [our] hearts. Gradually she gained a sense of security.
SMILE: How did you help her in the process?
HONG: Actually, she needs other males to give her a sense of security. Of course, he does not necessarily be the one she dates. But it can be other males for her to see there are other good male figures in order to affirm her sense of security. [55:14”]
For example, I remember one time I had a female client who wanted to accept her own female identity because she was religious. She accepted herself once again, she felt that God created her as a girl, she accepted it again. So, I encouraged her to “try to wear skirts!”
[Is Hong promoting his private psychiatric practice indirectly on the radio by going into so many details of the works he did?]
[Above are evidence of the way he helped his patients to change sexual orientation. Are those methods accepted by mainstream psychologists/psychiatrists?]
[Hong blurs the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity and his so-called methods in facts creates gender stereo types]
[American Psychiatric Assoc 2000 position statement declares that: 1) if the therapist should not determine the goal of the treatment either coercively or through subtle influence and that 2) the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek sexual orientation change efforts involves therapist that do not impose a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.]
SMILE: There are many stories you can tell.
HONG: Yes, I have many stories to tell.
SMILE: Let’s chat again next time, thank you.
[1] P 316 of Kahane/Tidman’s Logic & Philosophy.
[2] I think he meant TB as opposed to TBG.
[3] Alluding to Project Touch???
[4] I think this is his Freudian slip!!
[5] Faint sound from paper as if Hong was reading from a script.
