Hong on RTHK Radio5 Programme – III
English Translation of RTHK Radio 5 Programme -笑容從家開始
Episode title: 青少年性取向 (“Youth and sexuality or Teenagers’ sexual orientation”)
Date: May 27, 2010
**NB: Highlighted comments are rather dubious remarks made by either Dr. Hong and/or the host.
Client’s and relevant persons’ personal comments are in blue italicized text in square brackets
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SMILE: It’s past 8:20; my guest is a clinical psychiatrist Dr Hong Kwai Wah. Other than Dr Hong there are two guests… Mrs Chan and Mrs Law.
HONG: They are both participants of our “relatives’ group”, or “Hope Group” of NCA. Some parents discover that their children have homosexual orientation. They are in pain, don’t know what to do, they feel hurt, and very confused. They contacted us, so we formed parents’ support group to let them share and support one another.
SMILE: You are very brave to come to show to share your experiences. The reason why we have these shows are because parents called us, including Wai Sum, whose daughter is in Form 3, something unusual happened, she admitted to dating a girl at school, so Wai Sum blames herself, thinking it is because she did something wrong. She doesn’t know how to communicate with daughter, as her value is very different. Dr Hong why don’t you introduce your guests.
HONG: Mrs. Chan has a daughter who is homosexual, and she’s known about it for 10 years. Mrs. Law also knows her son has this sexual orientation, he’s about 16-17, but she’s only known for a few years. Mrs. Chan’s daughter is in her 20s.
MRS CHAN: About 10 years ago she told me she liked boys not girls [NOTE: EXACT WORDING, I THINK SHE MISSPOKE]. She was about 12-13. I just thought she was joking, until she grew and she changed, she cut her hair short, and suppressed her voice to sound like a man, after Form 3, 15-16 years old, she didn’t like dresses, liked wearing trousers, she preferred tight (loose?) clothes, to look like a boy. I witnessed the change.
SMILE: You saw her change slowly…
MRS CHAN: I was unhappy because she was supposed to be a daughter but why she became a boy?
SMILE: Yes, yes….
CHAN: I felt sad, couldn’t accept, but she’s my daughter, so I told her “mom loves you but your sexual orientation I can’t accept. But you are my daughter. I had to keep up the relationship. I tried not to argue, to maintain the love, but her identity is homosexual, so in that phase I felt very sad. It was very painful. Until at the church a priest introduced me to New Creation Association (“NCA”). I went and discovered many parents, same as me, their kids in same situation as mine, I had people to share. I couldn’t tell friends and relatives, I couldn’t talk about it. In NCA, I feel I have these other parents to talk to, when unhappy I can share, when I cry there are people who can understand. I can’t tell others because it’s hard to say to tell other people that my daughter is homosexual.
SMILE: Because other people don’t accept…
CHAN: Yes, many people don’t accept children to be that way.
SMILE: Mrs. Law, your son is younger…
LAW: Yes my son is younger, since he was young other people already told me he was different, and then a social worker told me…
SMILE: How old?
MRS LAW: In primary school.
SMILE: In primary school and it was already known?
LAW: Yes, in primary school… when he was small he blamed me for giving birth to him as a son, he liked to cut his sister’s hair, many friends and relatives already said he seemed a little gay (feminine) but we didn’t want to accept it.
SMILE: So it was already discovered when he was in primary school?
LAW: The social worker told me to be psychologically prepared, and I was, I expected it, but I still couldn’t accept, maybe he was just young and was joking around, he didn’t know. But at puberty he said he was, started telling other [boys] he liked them. I felt sad, I couldn’t accept.
SMILE: I have heard a lot of parents who don’t accept it. What to do? After the break we will ask Dr Hong how to nurture gender identity. [33”24]
SMILE: Before 9 o’clock today we will talk about homosexuality, how parents face their homosexual children. You can call and talk to us.
Dr Hong, a clinical psychiatrist is our guest. We talked earlier about Mrs Chan and Mrs Law, who have been there, with kids being homosexuality. From what I heard, there seems to be a process, the daughter or son tells us, before or after, there is a process, it begins with dressing up and then the behavior seems a little off, not like usual, than they confirm that’s what they are and start going out to meet partners
HONG: Yes it’s a process, psychological sexual development.
SMILE: It’s not something that happens in day
HONG: No, absolutely not
SMILE: Earlier, Wai Sum, whose daughter told her half year ago, like some parents she didn’t take it seriously, saying, “oh, don’t be silly, it’s not true, girls don’t’ like girls, marriage is between a man and a woman,” until daughter says she’s dating, Wai Sum blamed herself, asking herself why she didn’t do something or talked about it half a year ago.
HONG: Yes, you can talk, parents should not blame themselves, first reaction is often they don’t want to accept, reality is hard for parent to accept. If children tells parents they are homosexual, parents need to talk about it positively, sometimes [the children] are are misunderstood, some just want to have the same sex to protect them, other are actually gay. [36”27]
HONG: Same sex attraction has two sides, one is romantic, actually wanting to be in a love relationship with the same sex, the other side is sexual attraction, when the two are combined then we can say it’s homosexual and same sex attraction.
[Unsure where this idea came from… the definition of homosexual is multi-faceted and the accuracy of each depends on which field you are in. I am inclined to see that he is just setting out his ‘operational definition’ to facilitate discussion in the program. However, it should be noted that the phrase “same sex attraction” is widely used by reparative therapist/ NARTH people]
SMILE: What if it’s only the former?
HONG: It’s very rare to be only the former, usually, if you have romantic attraction, you are mostly you want to sexually response. But being sexually attracted is not necessarily also romantically attracted, it’s a little complicated.
SMILE: Many parents don’t want to recognize it, they take it lightly, don’ want to talk about it
HONG: I encourage them to be brave and ask for more information, get more details why they say they are attracted to the same sex, what has happened? If [the children] bring it up, they want a dialogue, they want to talk to parents, to get them to care, they want to see reaction, to see if parents want to accept them.
SMILE: So, it’s a good thing they tell you?
HONG: It’s good because if they are afraid of rejection so they won’t tell, even if parents ask, they don’t admit it and might even throw a fit and parents might misunderstand them.
SMILE: If they tell you then the relationship is not bad?
HONG: There’s at least a little trust. [38”35]
SMILE: Mrs. Chan, how did your daughter tell you?
CHAN: She said I liked girls not boys, so I thought she was kidding, as you said, how could a girl not like boys, I didn’t take it seriously, my daughter was young, so I didn’t keep it in mind, I didn’t think about looking into the subject of homosexuality more.
MRS LAW: I thought he was just joking around, he had a sister, and he liked long hair, and he asked he was I born as a boy not girl. He was just 3-4 years old and he liked playing with dolls.
SMILE: Dr Hong, these two parents are facing the situation when their children are in different phases, one is 3-4 years, the other a teen
HONG: There are two phases, from 10-11 years, like with Mrs Law’s, it’s another situation, there is gender identity confusion or disharmony, it’s a prelude to homosexual situation, that does not mean they must be gay, but the chance is much higher. Some parents see it only when [the children] have formed homosexual identity or started dating. In some cases the sexual orientation is not formed, but there is gender identity block, like in Mrs Law’s case, the son says, “oh I like being a girl, don’t like my identity as a boy”, he prefers to play with dolls, wear dresses, and envies long hair and the pretty looks. In that situation, many researchers have found [TIMER 4113], 70% of the cases, boys or girls, will become homosexual. If parents intervene when there’s the gender identity block, providing help to the family as well as the individual, there may be the chance to change, to prevent [the child] from becoming homosexual.
[Expert opinion to assess validity of this comment is needed – is it accurate to say that gender identity confusion most likely leads to homosexuality? What researcher/study is he quoting from?]
[Prof Holning S Lau suggested that Dr. Hong might be quoting from a 1981 study done by Bell, Weibur and Hammersmith. He states that the study did not prove causality; it only showed an association between homosexuality and gender non-conformity. Although Dr. Hong briefly cited the 70% figure, the rest of the show is not very nuanced and comes across as suggesting that 100% gays and lesbians are gender non-conforming]
SMILE: What to do? Like Mrs. Law, when there is gender identity confusion at 3-4 years old, can you tell him you are a boy and take away the toys?
HONG: This would not work. I believe if Mrs Law had known earlier, she could have turned to people with relevant counseling experience, it’s family counseling, like with the son rejecting his male identity and not feeling like a boy and wanting to be a girl… in earlier stage parents can so something.
[Mixing the gender identity confusion with homosexuality … Further Dr. Hong fails to acknowledge research that undermines the claim that parents an work to present homosexuality]
SMILE: Other than turning to the professional, on the family level, is it for the father to play a role?
HONG: Parents both can see counselors re why son cannot identify himself as male, what the father can do to intervene, to do with the son what boys do, don’t reject or scold him for the girlie behavior but don’t encourage it to continue either
[Dr. Hong implies that gender stereotyping is a strategic method to prevent homosexuality – is this accurate? This, in effect, entrenches stereotypes of gays and lesbians as gender non-conformists. This is misleading and an over-generalisation. .]
SMILE: What to do in everyday’s life?
HONG: That depends on [the child’s] age, if it’s in young age, father should spends time with son, to play boys’ things, play football, or play guns. The child might reject in the beginning and doesn’t want to get into it. The father needs to be patient and spends more time in it, maybe travelling with the son or get involved in activities. [44”08]
[Two issues can be tweaked out from his advice to parenting:-
1) Again, it is accurate to promote gender conforming as an effective strategy?
2) Further, his messages perpetually confuses gender identity confusion with homosexuality – they are two DIFFERENT matters]
SMILE: Should there be direct education, like telling the child you are a boy and you should do boys’ things?
HONG: Parents can say that, but the child might say I don’t like it, and that’s ok, just create opportunities for the father to be with the son. If [the boy] is young, you can go swimming and take showers together, at age 3-4, or 5-6, the child feels more love and care, father can become the male role model. Mrs. Law’s son may get rejected at school for being “girlie”, it hurts very much… [45”08]
SMILE: And it might push him more to woman side
HONG: Parents should understand that [the children] are unhappy because of it, afraid to be a boy because other boys reject him and hurt him. Parents should support him and say. “Although you like girlie things, you are a boy, you can do more boys’ stuff, your father can do it with you”. Parents seek help first. [45”41]
SMILE: We have just talked about children, when young, in kindergarten years, having gender identity confusion, what to do, especially in Mrs Chan’s case the child is already in puberty? Let’s talk about after the break…
[A RECORDED PROMOTIONAL MESSAGES FOR THE SHOW: “If a child grows up with tolerance, she/he learns tolerate; grows up around encouraged, she/he learns self-confident; grows up around fairness, she/he learns justice; grows up in safety, she/he learns confidence; grows up in praises, she/he learns loving oneself; if children lives in acceptance and friendships, they will go find love in the world.”] [47”19]
SMILE: Before 9am we will talk about homosexuality. If you find out that your children are homosexual, you need to face it with the whole family. Mrs Chan, your daughter was 13 when she told you she liked girl. It happened during puberty, it’s quite different, isn’t it Dr. Hong?
HONG: Chan said it very well, she accepted that, whether the daughter was gay or not, they had to keep communicating and caring about the whole person. Much can be discussed; you can talk to her about sexuality, not just sexual orientation. You can about the gender identity, whether she accepts herself as a woman.
SMILE: So what to do after the discussion?
HONG: Does she accept her own sexual orientation? Has she misunderstood? Sometimes they look online, and misunderstand that they are born that way. Much in the medical world… we have learned that environmental factors are more important than inborn. Read about this kind of information together, go online, talk, and clarify. In the past, when I helped homosexuals, society has a lot of misunderstanding, and homosexuals themselves misunderstand, thinking that they can’t change. The fact is they can change, if they don’t know this information then they won’t feel the need to change.
[His comments are suggests that homosexuality is something that NEEDs to be changed. This is an offensive statement and discriminatory to LBGT population. Further, his statement opposes the recommendations of international profession bodies – Both American Psychiatric and Psychological Association. Dr Hong as a psychiatric should know very well the position held by the relevant professional bodies and should not be making such remarks without clarifying that they DO NOT represent the position held by the psychiatric prof worldwide. ]
SMILE: what does it mean by “change”?
HONG: After it’s formed, it can still change. Psychologists have discovered that many teens’ homosexual attraction does not continue when they grow, some are temporary same-sex experience. Large-scale research with 12 years students shows that a quarter of them are not sure about their sexual orientation, but with 18 years old, only 5% not sure. Some think they are homosexual, but at 18 they find themselves heterosexual. When they are in puberty, parents can encourage them to not lock themselves in so early.
[How is this comment relevant at all? Do all children become homosexual from lack of exposure?]
SMILE: The daughter in her 20s, how do you deal with her?
MRS CHAN: She plays her role, if she wants to be boy, I can’t do anything, I don’t accept her sexual orientation, but she’s still my daughter, I don’t call her my son, not like some others, feeling like they have to accept, I absolutely cannot accept it.
SMILE: Your relationship keeps well?
MRS CHAN: Her relationship with me is good, she tells me things, like things at work, issues with friends. I share with her about my friends and things at church.
SMILE: She has a partner…?
MRS CHAN: She has a partner, who stayed in our house when visiting from overseas. We lived together harmoniously, we played host… her partner knew mom didn’t accept her homosexual tendency but treated her as a friend.
SMILE: Must be hard….
CHAN: Very, when you see your daughter looking like a boy, very hurtful
SMILE: And not to mention having to host the boyfriend/girlfriend… [Prof Holning Lau points out that at this point, Smile seems to laugh at the fact that the guest’s daughter brought a girlfriend home. She seems to mock the notion of same-sex relationship.]
CHAN: I feel I have done this out of love, if I didn’t love her I would have left her and made her leave.
SMILE: Mrs. Law, how about your son, who is 16?
LAW: There are fights sometimes… when we are in good mood, he tells us a little. Or when we ask, he tells. When he has arguments with the friend, he gives us hard times, sometimes not getting up for school
SMILE: When you have talked, and searched online, but if they still continue and even go find partners, what do you do?
HONG: Two mothers seem helpless, they can’t force their children to change, but don’t be disappointed. There is information of successful cases [to change], they can’t force it, but they can wait for opportunities. The children might date and break up, and at their down times, they might need to talk. Parents can take up the role and talk to them about life, love them. Some homosexuals break up many times, and in their 30s they want change. Parents need to be in tune with this kind of information, and introduce it and help the change…. you can get in that way.
[It seems inappropriate for Dr. Hong to promote sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) as a psychiatrist as the American Psychiatric Assoc 2000 position statements states that “as a general principle, therapists should not determine the goal of the treatment either coercively or through subtle influence”. It seems here, that Dr. Hong already made a conclusion that the goal of the treatment is to alter one’s sexual orientation – although the APA encourages therapists to NOT impose a specific sexual orientation identity outcome. Further, he mentions nothing re the harm that SOCE can cause.]
SMILE: How about adult homosexuals?
HONG: There are three situations according to research,: Some feel that continuing the homosexual lifestyle cannot bring them happiness and satisfaction, they feel hurt and want to part with it, second one is religious conflicts, and the third is when they still want to try to have a heterosexual family.
SMILE: Parents can’t give up and be there when they want to change. [9”10pm]
FROM 9:10 ONWARDS, SMILES BLATANTLY PROMOTES NCA, GIVING OUT THE NUMBER AND TAKES CALLS.
