Hong on RTHK Radio5 Programme – V
English Translation of RTHK Radio 5 Programme – 笑容從家開始
Episode title: 性別認同 (“Difference between sex and gender”)
Date: October 21, 2010
**NB: Highlighted comments are rather dubious remarks made by either Dr. Hong and/or the host.
Client’s and relevant persons’ personal comments are in blue italicized text in square brackets.
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SMILE: (Reading news of 21 October 2010 – Indecent assault victim is a female student – female teacher has been sentenced for 2 years) [6:55]
SMILE: (Reading news – Transgender person wanted to get married) [10:25]
SMILE: We invited Dr. Hong Kwai Wah, a psychiatrist to discuss on the issue of “psychological development of gender” (心性發展). Especially teenage and children’s psychological development, I believe parents would be concerned on this topic. Welcome you to call 1872312, your family hotline, and then we can listen to your call at 9:00.
SMILE: Good morning Dr. Hong [15:19]
HONG: Good morning.
SMILE: This topic is very exciting. There are different views in the society and the views changed from time to time. We often saw related court news on newspaper. People just read the news as seeing a movie and think this is so ridiculous. For example today, the judgment has been released. If you have listened to the radio yesterday, you would know that a female teacher who indecently assaulted a female student. This is a rare case because it is homosexual and they were originally teacher-student relationship. Earlier in this year, there was news about transgender person seeking the rights to get married. That is about the identification of gender or psychological development of gender. Parents would concern on how to nurture children about the correct sexual concept since young. What does it mean by psychological development of gender?
HONG: Psychological development of gender can be separated into different stage. First stage is at the time of birth. The doctor and nurse would be able to distinguish the gender identity from genital organs. You think he is a male then he is a male; you think she is a female then she is a female. It’s very simple. Then the birth certificate would indicate sexual characteristics in order to identify whether the child is male or female. This is an objective gender identity. This is also about others to confer the child with a gender identity.
Another concept is about the subjective gender identity. Whether the child thinks he is a male or female. Or to put it in a mild way, whether he feels like a boy or she feels like a girl, or whether he likes to be a male or she likes to be a female. The child would have self-awareness of his/her own gender identity. It is different to the objective one. For example, to those who seek transgender, they would feel different of their body and their gender identity. For example, a female gender identity was misplaced into a male body. This is the difference of gender identity and objective view from others. Sometimes they can be mismatched. This is stage two.
SMILE: Is this spontaneous which means to grow from the heart?
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: Does not need others to teach, does it?
HONG: Yes.
SMILE: Would it be affected by external factors?
HONG: Yes, it would be affected by external factors. For example, if he is a male, other people would tell him male should be doing things in male way.
SMILE: For example, male wears trousers and girl wears skirt.
HONG: Yes. For example girls should sit gently and not to fight with others. Girls should play girl’s toys. Male should play boy’s toys. Society always has particular expectations to a gender. Then parents or relatives would, base on these expectations, to nurture the children. Therefore, we can say family influence is quite important.
[Gender stereotyping]
SMILE: Does that mean family would affect the self-awareness of gender identification?
HONG: Yes. For example, when a boy is learning language and knows he is a male from other’s expectation, he would like recognition from a same sex parent. Such as boy recognize with dad or other males. Girl recognizes with mum and other females. This recognition and growth are very natural development process. This is also regarded as part of psychological development of gender.
SMILE: I heard homosexuals telling their stories that when they were small, I felt like I have an opposite sex identity. Can we say that they have a problem when they follow their same sex parent or there were family issue? Or is it inborn and not related to the family?
[Host mixing up gender identity confusion with homosexuality]
HONG: Both factors have an effect. Inborn factors obviously exist and acquired factors such as family would also affect the establishment of the gender identity.
SMILE: How do the acquired factors affect the establishment of gender identity? Does it mean parents dressed them up as female even though he is a boy? Or some family emphasis on male because of Chinese tradition, name the child with a male name and dress them up like a male?
HONG: The acquired factor is very complicated. If we say it in a simple way, a boy cannot agree with same sex.
SMILE: For example a boy cannot recognize with his dad?
HONG: Yes, and girl does not recognize with her mother.
[Stereotyping causes of homosexuality – misleading the audience? Need expert advice to assess validity of his claims]
SMILE: What is the reason for not recognizing?
HONG: There can be many reasons. Such as dad does not always being at home. Then they cannot recognize even they wanted to, or dad is so rude, or being so irresponsible. Then the relationship with his dad would be so bad. Then the child would think mother always scold father and the father is not good. Therefore, the child cannot get close to his father. May be this child is not the ordinary kind of boys, he may be emotional, sensitive or vulnerable kind of children who afraid being hurt by others. In the process of establishing gender identity, his father cannot be a role model of the child, he then cannot recognize with his father. Mother would always protect the child from being hurt from father. Thus, mother’s protection cannot lead the child to recognize with his dad. These are possible factors. Sometimes the child cannot recognize with father and getting closed to the mother. Therefore the child would learn from mother and recognize with mother more than to father.
SMILE: Therefore child from 2 years old to 5 years old should get close to their same sex parents.
HONG: Yes
SMILE: Okay, for girls, what are the factors leading to daughter not recognizing with mother?
HONG: Sometimes mother has a higher chance to suffer depression. Sometimes the mother was cheerless to the child, she does not really like the daughter or she does not have a good relationship with her husband so she does not have mental and physical ability to take care of her child. In some case, the child thinks the mother is too weak because she was always abused by the father. The child would not recognize with her mother. The daughter does not have a sense of security.
SMILE: Then she would think she can be the man to take care of mum.
HONG: Then she does not want to be a girl but being a boy she can have the ability to protect her mother from her father’s abuse.
SMILE: This is what we called factors of growth.
HONG: Sometimes boys getting too close to his mother and he might think he has to compensate the exhaustiveness of his mother because he thinks his mum is pathetic. He does not want to separate from his mother and does not want to be independent. Therefore, this issue is very complicated and there are many factors affecting.
SMILE: Just now we said when the kids are small, like 2-5 years old, having recognition with their same sex parent. We should pay attention because family violence and relationship of spouses would affect the children’s view of gender identity. Then when the children go to school, would the relationship among classmates affect the gender identification?
HONG: Yes, you can say it is the children’s formation period of gender identity when they get to primary school. In fact boys should get along, play with and talk to boys and to do something boys would do together. The getting along with same sex is very important to the gender identity.
[Break for news]
SMILE: Dr. Hong, just now we were mentioning the gender recognition. We talked about the role of parents since birth is very important. To determine whether the child is a boy or girl not only rely on the physical genital characteristics, especially for same sex parent’s sense of recognition is also important. Different kind of family issues, such as divorce and family violence, would affect the child’s view to gender identification. Then it reaches the stage where the child gets to school. Just now you said peer’s influence is very important.
HONG: Yes
SMILE: Would it be better to go to single gender school?
HONG: That is not absolutely the case. This world consists of two genders. The most important thing is that between the two genders the boys can get along with the boys.
SMILE: What if the boys were being isolated from other boys?
HONG: That’s why there are some feminine boys who have originally had gender recognition difficult at home. Most of the boys recognize to each other, they would think girls are very troublesome. Thus their exclusion of opposite sex is actually building up their same sex recognition. If there are some feminine boys, the other boys would laugh at them or bullied them. However, these boys need recognition from others but as he was excluded by other boys, then he would be very pathetic.
However, there are some differences to girls. If girls do not fit into girl’s group or feel like girls are not good, being a masculine one, she can be a very popular one. Particularly, she plays sports and to act in a boy’s role to protect other girls. For example if there are some insects in the classroom, she would go and kill the animal.
SMILE: This would strengthen the masculine thought of the girl.
HONG: Yes, therefore she would think she would be better off to be a boy. In additional to her masculine preference from the family background, it would motivate her to become more masculine.
SMILE: This is the peer side of factors. Therefore, the parents should pay attention to their children, especially when they were in primary school, and the relationship of the child and other children.
HONG: Some girls are of the other kind. For example, some girls who have little face or are older (awkward wording…) who being said to be tom boy style (男人婆), or being tall and tough, they would also be excluded by other girls. This is not admiration. Then she has also had gender identification issue.
SMILE: Does it mean it would not be good either being admired or being excluded?
HONG: Yes, to a certain extent they would be falling apart from their gender identification process.
SMILE: Especially when they are being excluded, for boys, they would even get closer to girl’s group.
HONG: Yes
SMILE: If the girl is being admired, just like being as cool as a tom boy, then she would love to be the character more.
HONG: They are pathetic because, for example, a masculine girl would like to play with girls but she was not in fact a girl. She is neither a girl…
SMILE: And she cannot get the satisfaction from other girls.
HONG: Same case to boys. If he was excluded by other boys and wanted to play with girls but she is not a girl, which would make him being stuck between the rocks.
SMILE: If the parents have noticed these circumstances, what should they do?
HONG: In this case, the parents should pay attention to the gender psychological development of the child. The child may have some difference to other boys, e.g. problem with getting along with classmates, emotional problems etc. and even some of them may have academic problems. They would not want to go to school and sometimes lead to a learning barrier. Therefore, parents should talk to each other and find out whether they have recognition problem with same sex parents. Sometimes parents are on business trips, they do not know the seriousness of the issue. Parents then have to read some related books or see psychologist to help their kids. For example, sometimes the father has to do something to avoid his boy getting too feminine, may be spending more time with his son to do some more boy’s stuff.
SMILE: Then he would not be stand out among his classmates.
HONG: And the father’s recognition is very important. For example, the son does not feel like he is a boy, the father should tell his son that he is a boy but just a gentle one. There are some rude one, some are sporty but there are also some other kind of boys, you are just those gentle and kind ones, may be you are good at music, or being artistic
SMILE: Or more sensitive to emotion
HONG: Yes
SMILE: But do the parents have to change their character?
HONG: We encourage parents not to deny their children’s feminine feature, but if the child was too weak or getting imbalance on masculine feature, the parents have to strengthen the masculine feature of their sons. Hopefully, the son would get a balance on gender identification. Nevertheless, if the mother found out the son took his mother’s lipstick to put on or to wear his mother’s high heels, then we would regard this is “cross-sexual recognition” (跨性別認同).
Then parents should tell clearly to the child that this do not fit his character as a boy. Boys should do this and that but not wearing high heels, otherwise people would laugh at him and other boys would not accept him as friends. The parents should encourage them to build up some more masculine features, not to deny them but encourage them. May be these kind of boys do not like to be sporty but father should spend more time with them first. For example, spend times with them to buy chips, ice-cream, or play at playground or read some books, then the father can build up some masculine activities with his son step by step. The purpose of doing this is to narrow the gap between the son and other boys. For example, if the child is a gentle guy and there are also some other gentle male classmates, then parents can host parties to invite similar kind of classmates to join in order to establish better friendship with these boys.
SMILE: At this stage, the child is like a pool of flour, the parents should have to the chance to get involved.
HONG: Yes, you can say before puberty, although the gender identification is not quite usual, there is still a lot of room for change.
SMILE: At this time puberty just started, from 11-14 years old are puberty period, and the sexual preference started to form, this would be a key time, right?
HONG: In fact, the gender identification is also very important. If the children has gender recognition barrier, there are 45-75% that they will become homosexual preference. For other kids who does not have gender identity disorder, only 2-3% would develop homosexual preference. Therefore the gender identity disorder is one of the pre-homosexual features. Nevertheless, they might not become those 45-75%.
[Expert advice to assess validity of comment is necessary]
SMILE: Every stage is very important.
HONG: Yes, every stage is really important.
SMILE: Just now as you said, gender identity disorder would develop since 2-5 year old, 45-75% would become homosexual. What about the others?
HONG: Another 5% would suffer adult gender identity disorder. A small part would become cross-dressing, they would like to wear clothing of other people.
SMILE: They do not want to be homosexual or transgender right?
HONG: Yes
SMILE: For those who suffered gender identity disorder, only part of them would want to get transgender operation. For those people, they are so radical that they would like their body to be changed.
[Song break]
SMILE: Dr. Hong today is going to talk about gender recognition.
When we were small, we would steal dad and mum’s clothes. I have a son and a daughter, my daughter would like to dress up with my clothes and when my son saw it, he played with my daughter and wears my high heels. After listening to you, I have to pay attention to my children.
HONG: You don’t have to worry too much. Some little pretending opposite sex in fact is not a big problem. Nevertheless, parents should pay attention to the continue behavior of the children.
SMILE: What we said is that gender identification is not just superficial stuff, they can be very deep level right?
HONG: Yes, for example, some serious case would be a person believes he is a female even though he has a male body or she thinks she is of opposite sex or hoping to be in opposite sex. These kinds of people is serious about their gender identification. For others, they do not agree with their gender identification. For example, the toy that they would like to play or the things they like to see are the opposite sex’s preference.
SMILE: How should the others deal with this kind of situation? For example, your daughter tells you that she is not a female but a male, and then you would be frightened.
HONG: Firstly, the parents do not have to be afraid. They should know that gender identity disorder can still be fixed. They should get to know the cause of this problem. Just now we mentioned there were inborn factors as well as acquired factors, especially family reasons. If the child cannot immediately recognize the identification, the parents should get more involved. They should pay more quality time with their child.
SMILE: With regards to game, as we have heard about gender identification setting, parents would be afraid that girl does not only play girl’s stuff but they can also boy’s stuff…
HONG: Actually every person has both masculine and feminine feature. For example, if the child is a masculine girl, the father can admire mother’s costume and her dressings, so when the mother goes out shopping with the daughter, the daughter will then be adapted to the ways of costume.
SMILE: That’s mean create more different image to the child to show the child that actually there are various ways to get oneself changed. We cannot discuss all the stuff today, but I would like to ask a question at this stage: Gender identity disorder is now regarded as a psychiatric sickness and there are treatments to the problem…
HONG: the earlier the intervention, the better the result…
SMILE: Yes, then there are 45-75% would turn into homosexual, but homosexuality is not now regarded as psychiatric illness, then is gender identity disorder a sickness? Or is it just a preference of a person on the basis on human rights?
HONG: Although we have different views towards gender recognition, we should not deny the fact that they have emotional, interpersonal, academic and even family problems. It is always revealed that there is imbalance of family structure. We should face this directly; we should help them to solve this problem instead of ignoring them because thinking that they are normal. They are actually more exhausted than the other children.
[Again, stereotyping that people who have gender identification issues all are victims of external issues which caused their confusion towards their own gender]
SMILE: There are some people saying that they have emotional or interpersonal problem is because people not accepting them as having homosexual preference. If the people agree with them then they would not have a big problem at all.
HONG: If these people know more about gender recognition, they would know their stress in the family or school would not be solved this easily.
SMILE: We would talk about it next time.
